 | austin poker club shut down |
Well, it finally happened... the Austin Poker Club got busted. It had a good run of 6+ months of regular poker action. It will probably not re-open.
I expected this to happen, as it wasn't operating in a way likely to be legally defensible under Texas penal code. I actually did a lot of research into Texas gambling law and legal cases involving Section 47 before I joined the APC.
I came to two conclusions: 1. the club was probably not fully legal, and was probably going to be shut down some time in the future, but 2. if the club did get busted, no patrons would be arrested, and the worst thing that would happen is that you would lose your buy-in that night. (I read most of the cases in Texas history going back to the early 1900's; no gamblers have ever been prosecuted in any bust of gambling places.)
So it was a low-risk proposition, and gave me the opportunity to play a little more regularly than I had been. I didn't play there as often as some of my other poker buddies, but it was a great place -- well-run, friendly staff and players, and excellent saturday tournaments.
Incidentally, I do believe that it's possible to operate a poker club similar to APC in a way that's totally legal under Section 47. It's a pretty attractive proposition: I estimate APC probably booked over $150k in revenue in under 6 months and probably made over 50% margin. But I'll never do it, because even a club operating in a way legal under Section 47 is virtually guaranteed to be busted in Texas, and might still lose a trial, making the owner a felon. My desire to not have a felony on my record slightly outstrips my desire to own a poker club.
Update: John Ogilbee pointed out that there are no felony gambling offences unless organized crime is involved; keeping a gambling place is a Class A Misdemeanor.
Section 47 has an overriding philosophy behind it that while social home gambling (with some important restrictions, like not playing "house games" such as blackjack) is perfectly legal, nobody should ever be profiting from gambling in Texas outside of their normal winnings. I'd like to think getting a group together to lobby for legal poker clubs in Texas would be a fruitful venture, but I doubt it would. The APC's method of operation and really clean record of no bad stuff occurring there probably would help a case to legislators, though.
Jeremy,
Well written article.
As the politicle climate changes in Austin, so does the scrutiny of the club. That is why it is important to take this through the courts and get a clear opinion.
Reread the Texas Penal Code and understand poker as a game of skill. You will get a new outlook once you read the definitions regarding gambling. The attorneys involved in this case will revolutionize poker in Texas.
Also, felonies are not associated with gambling unless organized crime is introduced. All gambling offenses are misdemeanors. Using poker skills, I calculated my outs and found this to be an acceptable risk.
Thank you so much for your support and keep poker alive in Texas.
John Ogilbee
Posted by: John Ogilbee on April 30, 2003 02:09 PMJohn,
thanks for the comments! I would love to see poker be regulated as a game of skill, or in some separate category like bingo or lotteries. Your attitude and intent is absolutely terrific -- revolutionizing poker in Texas, the namesake of hold'em, is way overdue!
I'd be curious as to how your attorneys plan to prove that poker is a game of skill, though. The Section 47 definition of a bet is : "'Bet' means an agreement to win or lose something of value solely or partially by chance." I can't see how you'll be able to argue that winning a pot is not determined [partially] by chance.
The other obstacle of course is assembling a defense that contends "no person received any economic benefit other than personal winnings". In Gaudio v. Texas, the decision stated that even simply tips to a waitress or dealer (even with no time charge or rake) could be enough to prove economic gain (which seems ridiculous -- if you order a pizza during a game does that mean that Pizza Hut got economic gain out of your game?).
I'll be following your case closely and attending any hearings I'm able to. All the best with it.
If you plan on doing any lobbying of lawmakers, I'm 100% on board with getting everyone I know (and some I don't) to contact their reps and voice their opinions on changing the law.
Posted by: jeremy on April 30, 2003 02:26 PMThis really stinks. APC took great pains to make sure they were legal, and ended up getting hit by DPS, just one of many agencys capable of arrests. I am trying to get permission to hold poker tournaments, which should be legal (as legal as bridge tournaments) under section 2 of the code. APD was very receptive, TABC won't give me the time of day. "We don't interpret the law." I feel for APC and hope they win the case. They have full defense to prosecution, but that may not mean anything here....
Posted by: Matt Stephans on April 30, 2003 11:25 PMPoker should be allowed in the state of Texas. I would love to help in any way I can the casue to make it legal to play Hold em'. And I know others that would love to see the card rooms pop up around here as well. Let me know what I can do.
BH
I have a question. Can you tell me if a group of lets say 10 to 20 people were to get together one or two times a month at a private home of one of the group to play some nickle dime poker would be a violation of law or not?
Posted by: Roger on February 23, 2004 01:02 PMPlease click on the link on the left sidebar of this site that says "poker legality" -- it has detailed info on the legality of poker in Texas.
The quick answer is, it's legal as long as it's in private, you play poker, and nobody makes any economic benefit other than personal winnings (i.e. you can't rake the pot or charge for anything).
Posted by: jeremy on February 23, 2004 01:11 PMI have been hosting blackjack tournaments in Texas around the D/FW area for members of Texas Tournaments for the passed two years. The only problem I have had was last month (January 2004). I was going to hold three major tournaments of $50,000, $50,000, & $70,000 dollars
I had players coming in from 17 states and 3 countries (all of who are members of Texas Tournaments and had pre-paid their entries). The Ft. Worth Police told the hotel where we were to hold the tournaments that they were illegal two weeks before the events and the hotel canceled on us.
Since it is against the law for the police to give legal advice they are guilty of interference, they along with the hotel (who are in breech of contract) and are both being sued. The Tarrant County District Attorneys Office has ruled my tournaments legal and that the police were indeed at fault. My case is so good my attorney is not charging me a dime unless he wins the case.
I have been hosting satellite tournaments (again for members only) for the Las Vegas Hiltons Million Dollar Blackjack tournament monthly qualifiers and I sign up a major airline to be a one of our corporate sponsors just last week.
Besides these Bj tournaments I expect to open poker rooms in Texas within the year at 6 locations: Dallas, Ft. Worth, Austin, San Antonio, Houston, and El Paso. Please contact me if you want to find out more about Texas Tournaments.
jeremy,
Great Website. However, you do not have contact info that i could find, but maybe you did that on purpose.
My name is Nate E. I am a student at Texas State University at San Marcos, Texas. I am looking into starting a nonprofit poker organization on campus. After viewing your site I would like to pick your brain some more to find out if it is legal.
Please email me with contact info if you would like to help with my cause.
Nate E.
Nembry304@yahoo.com
Ok I have an idea for running a game that might side step the law and make the game legal???? Key word Maybe
So if econimic gain is the main reason for making games illegal, then all we have to do is not have economic gain, correct. OK stay with me.
Heres the Idea, lets say you open up the Austin Swim and Spa Club, now as a perk of being a member of the SS club we as the owners have set up card tables for the members to play on, they are not allowed to tip the dealers in any way, they will be put on sallary. The only money comming into the Swim and Spa Club is off of monthly dues and Inniation Fees. Say $200 to join and $100 per month,
Its no different that any Golf Club after all the members play some form card games for money all hours of the day??? all you would have to do is get a private club liccens.
Will it work??????????
Posted by: Stephen on June 11, 2004 04:09 PMYou've got the right idea as I see it. The key would be to convince the law that a) the dealers in your game aren't working there purely to deal -- dealing would have to be just a fractional part of their job responsibilities, b) absolutely no tipping or raking from pots, and c) that members were not joining purely to play cards.
The problem with that kind of set up is that once you do the math, to get any kind of revenue even coming close to the amount that casinos get from raked pots, you'd have to be charging astronomical monthly dues, which not only would only be salient to people who came purely to play cards and play a LOT, but even then would be a major barrier to new members.
Not to mention the fact that you'd probably STILL have to defend yourself in court at some point.
Posted by: jeremy on June 11, 2004 04:18 PMJeremy, my name is Rick Garren and I am starting a social club in Houston, we are only playing poker with no Machines with a cover charge to enter and play tournaments. We will feature live play as well. Anyone in the Houston area who wants to play in a really great atmosphere, which has been checked out with the Harris County Distict Atty. and the Webster Police department please feel free to give me a call. This is not an unfinished hole in the wall in a dark secret location where you have to worry. My set up and equipment will rival the poker room at Harrahs Lake Charles. I would be honored if you would come down and join us sometime!! Anyone interested can call me at 832-309-3398
Posted by: Rick Garren on November 3, 2004 11:32 PMJeremy, my name is Rick Garren and I am starting a social club in Houston, we are only playing poker with no Machines with a cover charge to enter and play tournaments. We will feature live play as well. Anyone in the Houston area who wants to play in a really great atmosphere, which has been checked out with the Harris County Distict Atty. and the Webster Police department please feel free to give me a call. This is not an unfinished hole in the wall in a dark secret location where you have to worry. My set up and equipment will rival the poker room at Harrahs Lake Charles. I would be honored if you would come down and join us sometime!! Anyone interested can call me at 832-309-3398
Posted by: Rick Garren on November 3, 2004 11:33 PMpoker dealers looking for work, would like to find a connection or 2, 25 yrs experence
Posted by: marty on December 24, 2004 03:58 PMI am a Floridian who is also interested in the legality of poker rooms.
Anyway, the Texas statute on what represents "oganized crime" is vauge at best from my understanding. I flirted with the idea of starting a PRIVATE poker club made up of businesspeople. A carpet joint, no grift with class dealers and set ups and a nice deli tray.
After administrative expenses etc. the balance would go to charity.
Anyway, my attorney advised that if a zealot wanted to prosecute me they could use the RICO statute!! Draconian?? What constitutes "organized crime" under the RICO statute?? Read that act friends, it dosen't only apply to the Mafia or Koshernostra!! Anyone can be charged under the RICO statute and the forfieture provisions make this a losing proposition.
In Florida, the dog tracks are starting card rooms. What hypocracy?? As long as the State of Florida gets a rake it is Kosher. Who are the real crooks anyway?
I really enjoy your web page and has kept me from doing something stupid and for that I thank you!!
Joey
Posted by: joe velniak on February 6, 2005 07:15 PMWell Big Slicks has been great up to this point!! Now I hear Houston Vice is set to raid our private club even though we are not raking or housing any machines!! SO everyone get ready I am going to bat for all of us, lets make them actually do what they dont want to do and that is try one of these cases!! I am fully prepared to take a polygraph test on televison that I called and the Harris County DA's office heard what we were going to do and said it was fine!! Now I guess they want to change their story, well sorry that just wont fly with me!!! So keep watching your TVs this is going to get very public very fast!! I want a 12 person jury to decide once and for all what the grey Texas Gambling laws actually allow!!!
Posted by: Rick Garren on March 3, 2005 03:23 AMSomeone has come on this board pretending to be me. My business has not been raided or shut down by the police. I talked to HPD vice and any questionable points have been addressed!! I would actually like to commend the HPD vice for their help in maintaining the status of our business!! Thanks to all of our members
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